An Interview with
Margaret Bessera
Conducted by Peg McNab, for CABB
(To see Margaret and some of her work, click here.)If there's anyone in the world who knows Vincent, it's this lady. I'm speaking, of course, of Margaret Bessera-Prentice, the wonderfully talented make-up artist whose sole responsibility was creating and maintaining the magical illusion of Vincent. She was the first one to see him in the morning and the last one to see him at night, every working day, for the entire run of the series. In the following interview, her first since the show was cancelled, she reveals a few juicy secrets, many funny, poignant memories, and an obvious deep affection for the time spent on this show, along with cast and crew. It was a thrill and privilege for me to speak to Margaret. She was a warm and engaging lady, full of laughter, and who is enjoying a full life with her husband, make-up artist Vince Prentice, and their lovely young children. I know you will enjoy what she has to say about her daily routine on the show, her relationship with Ron Perlman, and most importantly, her relationship with and memories of Vincent.
~ Peg McNabb
Any comments on how B&B has continued to thrive after 10 years?
People love to be romanced, whether it's from a relationship, a good book, movie, or even a TV show!
How and why did you get into this line of work?
I knew Rob Bottin because he was a friend of my brother's. I graduated from City College after taking every art class they had. I decided to go back to school to get my cosmetology license. I thought I could get my bills paid by being a hairdresser, then paint at home for myself. Rob knew I was in school for hair and asked me to help him with an ape suit he was building for a movie called "Tanya's Island." I didn't like all the hard work. I got my license and looked for a job in a salon, but I wasn't having a lot of luck. Rob got his first big movie "The Howling" and he asked me to work on that. I knew how to paint so one of his guys just needed to show me how to use the materials needed for painting in this field. After that it was "learn by doing." I realized I was in a job that incorporated all my education, such as painting creatures or puppets of actors then applying and dressing any hair pieces. Now, I did like the work! After several years of painting for Rob, he got the movie "Legend." It was with a young Tom Cruise. A lot of us who were not in the Union had an opportunity to get into 706 Make-Up Union, so I took the test and got in - I could now start doing make-up. The last make-up job I did was another Tom Cruise movie "Mission Impossible", again for Rob Bottin. They sent me to England for two weeks and I worked in the lab painting - one day I did a Russian older man prosthetic make-up on Tom Cruise. He's only in the make-up in the opening scene in the movie.
How did you get the job on B&B and what did you like best about it? The least?
Rob Bottin was an apprentice to Rick Baker, so we knew each other. When he got Kevin Yeager to do the make-up on the Pilot, he realized the job was so time consuming, he needed to get an assistant. He called me and I had a great time working with Rick and Kevin. When Rick called me to do the series I was really scared because I wasn't sure about doing this make-up by myself. I did need the job and wanted the challenge to do a good job for Rick. My favorite thing was working with Ron. The worst part was the long hours.
Speaking of Ron, you just had an occasion to recently get in touch with him about a project. What was it like reconnecting after all these years?
I was never one to keep in touch; in fact, I hadn't even talked to Ron in years, but Rob wanted me to get in touch with him so that he could meet with Ron for possible work. I called Ron and left a message on his machine. I wasn't even sure if it was the same number after all these years, so it was a relief to hear his voice on the machine! He called me back right away and we had a great little conversation. The years we hadn't kept in touch just melted away!
What would you consider your specialty?
I guess it would be the prosthetic makeup because the other, of course, is painting...you know, that's what I started doing. No, I'm talking strictly in the area of makeup...If someone were to say, "oh, that job is one for Margaret Bessera-Prentice to do", what would that be Prosthetics...yeah...If someone needs to have something glued on their face(chuckles) Or if some character kind of thing, black eyes...someone even called me to do a bullet hit.
What do you hate doing in makeup? Is there something you just dread doing? Or do you find it all interesting?
Not really...I mean there's some things that are tedious, but I just enjoy seeing the end effect. (laughs)
Do you prefer film or television work?
Probably from an artist point of view, I'd have to say film.
Why?
Because TV has to be so quick. If you're doing episodic television, you have seven days to shoot the episode and they may have given you the script three or four days before they start shooting. So there isn't a lot of time for preparation and you sometimes have to kind of "wing it", and throw things together at the last minute. And then, of course, they don't want to have to pay for the amount of time it takes to do a proper appliance, depending on how extensive it is. And also, when they go to film it, they don't always have an appreciation of what it took to do it, and they may decide, "Oh, we just need a few seconds of it." My husband gets frustrated with that in Dr. Quinn. They want a slash, or an animal attack and you have this victim. But then you do all this work, it's like hurry, hurry, hurry, you get it on the set, and then the effect doesn't even show in the shot. They want this perfect, great thing and then you get it in front of the cameras, it's like "ok, let's hurry and get the shot."
What are you currently working on?
Raising my three kids. (laughs) I'll take things here and there, but only if they're small. I'm also back to doing some lab work for Rob Bottin because his shop is 5 minutes away from me. The last thing I worked on was a Disney movie, well, actually one of their offshoots like Touchstone...It's called Deep Rising and it's about a deep sea creature that attacks this ocean liner. They needed models of the creature and things like that, so I just went back to painting. There's this girl that gets a tentacle wrapped around her waist and she gets folded in half and pulled through a hole. So they did this complete puppet of her, a dummy, and they brought the actress in. I had pictures of the makeup she was in, and I had to duplicate this, to paint this puppet to look like her. (Note, since this interview, Margaret has worked on Robin Williams in Bicentennial Man, and Brad Pitt in Fight Club.)
In your opinion, who would be the top 3 makeup artists in the industry today?
I think Rick Baker's still up there, and so is Rob Bottin. The third one? Hmmmm, it varies. Stan Winston would be up there too. He did the Terminator and the dinosaurs, the puppets, in Jurassic Park.
Is there a project that you would have loved to have been a part of, but you were unable to do?
Oh, I got called on all the Batman movies and either the kids were too small, or my husband was working. I knew it would have been a hectic schedule. I wish I had gotten involved in at least one of them because I thought they were fun.
How has makeup technology changed in the last 10 years and with those changes, would you have done anything different with Vincent?
No, not with that, because there's no money for any special technology, or any of the new stuff for TV - and there's so much involvement in the character from the actor. It's not like a puppet - you couldn't get the effect if there was some sort of mechanical thing.
Well, I was thinking more of the actual makeup, improvements in prosthetics, etc. I know you mentioned that Ron was allergic to some components of his makeup.
He was allergic to the old glues, the spirit gums. That's a very old glue and a lot of people do react to it...it's pretty harsh. The glue that they've developed, well, there isn't that much change in that kind of adhesive and it's what we used that worked the best on him. So far as I know, there isn't anything else.
Were you allowed the freedom to improve on Rick Baker's Vincent design? If so, what changes did you make?
I didn't really. The pieces that are glued on him, those never changed. Those stayed the same because they came out of molds. It would have been a big process to change anything.
So the molds made for the Pilot were the same molds used throughout the series?
Yeah. Those all came out of Rick Baker's shop. I would just go to Rick's and pick up the new pieces every so often.
How many would you go through? How long would each face last?
The molds, you can get quite a few pieces out of them. The pieces were one a day because there's an oily substance used to remove it and that swells up the foam...so it's not usable again. Rick would come to the set at first a couple of times, but after that, he pretty much just left it to me. He supplied anything I needed. If anything happened to Vincent's little caps, little fangs, or his appliances, I would just go over every couple of weeks and pick up a couple of boxes of faces. (laughs)
What was the hardest on the makeup and hair? Lights, smoke, heat, sweat?
Sweat. Sweat and time. Because we got to a point where I knew if he'd had it on for 14 hours.
And this was normal?
Yeah, there were quite a few long days...not every day, but there were some days when I'd be like, "Ok, Ron, it's after 14 hours; we're gonna need some major touch-up's." (laughs) And I would always have to tell the Production Assistant that I was going to be needing to haul him away for a REALLY long touch-up session. The pieces around his mouth would be the ones to go...that was the only problem really, the lower lip, on the chin, from talking and just sweat. Most of the rest of the edges were so overlapped or went all around his face that you never saw them and they seldom ever came up - it was mostly the mouth area, and sometimes the middle of the forehead.
Where did the wigs come from and what were they made of?
They were human hair and came from three different places. we had two wigs for the entire show. Only during the last season did I end up getting a third wig.
Well, they looked different throughout the series - was that just lighting?
They had subtle differences, and then some of them, when you have them cleaned and I had to redress them, then occasionally the texture of the hair might not be as exact. I remember one started to mat a little quicker, it would start to get straight, and then the other one would be a little curlier (giggles) and trying to keep them uniform....Then, there was the oldest one that I would end up using when he was dirty or messed up, or when there was the evil and good Vincent, the dark Vincent. That wig for the dark Vincent was the oldest one that was getting pretty messed up anyway, so I just dyed it and took off with it. I think that Dark Vincent was my favorite, as far as my being proudest of the looks of Vincent.
Well, I'm going to bring that up later if we can postpone that for now...Was Ron in makeup every day or was he brought in, made up, and many different scenes shot with him all in a few days? time in order to save money and makeup hours?
They tried to pre-schedule, but TV makes that difficult at times. They wouldn't just put him in makeup and then see if they used him. That only happened once and he got furious. They rushed us around and got him in makeup and we got on the set. Then, they were like, "well, we're not sure when we're going to get to your scene" and that first Assistant Director ended up getting in trouble. (laughs) They only THOUGHT they would use him...so it had to be really specific. Everything was set up ahead of time, everything was really specific. In fact, we would joke around, "oh, today is going to be a 'one growl' day" because maybe we had to get him in makeup because they wanted to do close-ups around a fight that was being done with a stunt double. So on those days we would just have fun and hang out since he didn't even have dialogue, except to growl!
Did he really growl or was that post production?
He did growl, plus they enhanced it to get that truly animal sound.
Was the makeup and coloring exaggerated for stage lighting or was it done more subtly for more realism?
We tried to keep it natural, but because it was so...we didn't want to be too dramatic with shading because there are such defined shapes already on his face that made a lot of shadow. It would look too painted if you went too dramatic, it wouldn't be as believable. Plus, Vincent was supposed to be a sentimental, soft character and so that's why we wanted to keep him really well blended in coloring, soft coloring, warm coloring.
How was the makeup removed?
There's sort of this oily alcohol..I can't even remember the name of it right now. But basically, I'd go around the edges, start soaking up the pieces, and then we would remove the pieces with this. He would actually help...that's the way Ron was, he was really helpful for me. He would, once we got the pieces off...well, he had gone to someone named Mariana who did facials and had her own products and had given us samples of this cream. But you couldn't take the pieces off because it wouldn't soak into the foam. But once you had the pieces off, this cream actually took off all of the glue and the makeup, this acrylic-based glue and paint that we used too...that was hard to remove. But this cream would just clean everything off. Between he and I...at some point, he just took over and he would get the cream and slap it all over, finish cleaning off himself..it just really came off easily. We even both saw that his hairline actually came DOWN! (laughs) it started to grow! We never knew if it was her creams or a combination of her products and the remover that caused the hair growth. He was really nice because he would finish up cleaning himself so I could start cleaning wigs and get things put away. It was a lot of work to clean up at night.
Yes, I've read that you were always the last to leave the lot and I wanted to ask you why that was.
Well, if he worked all day, if he worked til we wrapped at the end of the day, there was about 40 minutes to get him out of makeup and another 15-20 minutes for me to clean up. I had to clean the lace on the wigs every night.
What is the lace?
All the hairs are individually tied onto a lace backing material. It kind of looks like wedding netting. The hairs are tied onto those little tiny squares. The middle or the back of the wig is sometimes a different material because the hair is heavy to put in. But for the fine hairline that has to look more natural, it's on this netting. Then that netting, you have to have a little bit of it that doesn't have the hair so you can glue that down onto his skin or onto the makeup pieces. So when you remove this, paint and makeup come off onto the netting and that has to be stripped and cleaned every night. The wig has to be pinned onto a form so it doesn't lose its shape.
How did you clean the wig?
The lace part, you try not to get anything in the hair so you don't have to be washing it too. (laughs) You clean it with some acetone - there's some types of cleaners for the lace - that's why you don't want to get it in the hair, it dries it all out! But that has to be cleaned out every night because if you don't you end up with lumps and weird stuff that glues back on..so you have to have it completely clean every night. By the time I got done with all of that, I mean the crew, the actors, they are OUT! (laughs) They wrap and the day's over - everyone's out as fast as they can! The only people left were Ron and me, but then he left when he was done. I was left to finish cleaning up and then the driver, and maybe a Teamster who's in charge of that trailer has to stay there and they lock up. Sometimes they just left it to me. That's why I was the last one there.
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Lot of long days, Margaret. Do you miss it?Actually, sometimes I do! (laughs) It's just because I had such a good time on that show. Well, with the kids now, it'd be a frustrating thing. You like your work, but the kids need you and it gets kinda too much.
You mentioned to me that you kept a makeup journal on B&B. What kind of things did you write down in there?
It was something that I started just because I was bored sitting on the set! (laughs) I took this little book and wrote down step-by-step of putting the appliances on his face, even how I held the pieces so they glued down right, what glues I used for where...The makeup sessions were in three sessions - first you put the pieces on and glue them down, get all the edges blended down, then we'd take a break. Then we'd start the paint job and I'd get it all painted and then another break. Finally came the hair work. I'd have to do all the beard stubble. Those little hairs were all glued to his chin and facial hair.
Rick Baker mentioned in an interview that you liked yak hair for the beard stubble.
(laughs) Really? I guess that's what I had. They would crimp all this hair and then I'd pick that up too when I picked up the faces. I would take that crimped hair, this tight wave in it, and I would chop it all up to about 1/4 inch, tiny bits of hair. Then I'd clump it into a tiny ball, real tight between my thumb and forefinger, and then split that ball in half. So you have this little ball with little hairs sticking out. I'd put the glue on his face and start tapping! (laughs) That's how you do all that beard stubble. It had to be pretty thick to resemble that thicker facial hair.
Rick also said that everyone hated to do the beard, but that you had discovered a way to make it easier, so you didn't mind it so much.
Well, because it was taking so long, we had tried using real hair for the beard stubble, like a goatee almost, with the rest being stipple and paint. Then we just realized that it wasn't working on film all that well. I had gotten pretty quick at it. I could do his whole beard in 20 minutes, so we
decided to go ahead and I'd do the whole beard myself - it just looked better.Was there anything you wanted to do with Vincent's look that you never got an opportunity to do? Or did you like him the way he was?
I really pretty much liked him the way he was. There was a time Ron and I wanted, and I think even Rick had designed Vincent with a braid in his hair, but those in control refused that.
And you mentioned Ron wanted to sneak in an earring?
Yeah, that too! That's right. Yeah, Ron wanted an earring. We kinda liked going towards that pirate, rugged look, but nah...they wouldn't have it! (laughs)
Well, it's well known now that you did sneak in a braid in one episode. Did anyone know you were going to do that? You and Ron just decided one morning to do it?
Yeah (laughs). We were just playing around with it and then I said to Eric Weiss (the male costumer for the show) "Eric, get me some of that leather stripping"...You know, those little strands they used for lacing of the costumes? (laughs) So he got some and we were just playing with it going, "nah, let's do it like this" or "No, how about this?" and we figured what the heck. They'll just film it, it's a dream, they won't say anything. Just like this one time I changed his hair style....
Oh, tell me about that.
That was, oh..let's see...a ballroom scene? Everyone was supposed to be in costume, I think. That's why he was able to come out in the open. In Masques? Where it was Halloween? That was one of the early ones. I think so. He had a big, blousy white shirt, and his hair, I think I put a part in it, or gave him a bang.
In the Winterfest scene, in a later episode, he had a part in there as well. Could it be that one? That was second season.
Well, there have been a couple of times we just changed his hair a little bit, more dramatic with that masquerade ball thing. Of course, we heard about it afterwards!!
Oh did you? So it was noticed...Oh yeah! (chuckles) He was supposed to be in costume, you know, but when he's Vincent, he's supposed to have his hair the way the pilot was. They always bothered me about his hair, that it never looked the same, or "oh, this looks too different" or "you gotta get it to look like it did in the Pilot." They'd hassle me with it from time to time. One time, they wanted me to fluff it up, but not to make it look too teased...they'd go back and forth and they were driving me nuts for a couple of episodes...so I just went ahead and said I DID change it, and they ended up saying it looked better! (laughs) That's when I juts tried not to take it too seriously when they were hassling me. If I hadn't washed it, maybe it was harder to get the same style. It was hard to maintain the exact, exact style.
Was there anything you were asked to do with Vincent that you couldn't do, like they wanted him to look one way, but you just couldn't accommodate them?
No. They wanted him to look exactly the same all the time. I had emergency things, like when he was doing this fight, and somehow his cheek got snagged and the appliance got torn. They were all panicking because there was this hole in his cheek. But that kind of emergency, having to do repair jobs...the wig even got ripped one time during a take. He had to run through one of those low tunnels and the opening was 4 or 3 1/2 feet, I mean tiny! And running, he had to go through this opening. Of course, he hit the top of his head. It banged the wig and ripped it back over the top of his head. I mean he banged his head good, and it ripped the lace down this one side of the wig. I was saying, "oh no" because the other wig hadn't been cleaned yet. (laughs) So I had to rush back to the trailer and do an emergency sew up job on the wig as fast as I could.
Speaking of the trailer, David Schwartz has described that trailer as the "place to be" in the morning. Describe a typical "trailer" morning.
Oh gee...in the morning, they tried to give us our space because I had to get the work done. Once he was in his makeup, then people would visit, or if we weren't needed on a few scenes, then we'd just hang out in the trailer. Other people who weren't working on something would come in and visit and it got to a point where we had a TV and VCR, so we'd watch movies. Ron got a TV and VCR that was set up on one side of the makeup table. When you walked in the trailer, it was supposed to be like the living room part of the trailer, and they let me design what I wanted and built me my makeup area in there. So he had a TV/VCR put in there along with a phone. (laughs) I'm thinking "oh, it's 3 in the morning, he won't be on the phone, so I can work and get my work done." So then he started calling his New York friends because it was 3 hours later there! (laughs)
But that doesn't help you in your job if he's talking!
I used to tease him that the first gray hairs I got was when he got that phone put in. (laughs)
It sounds like you guys had a wonderful working relationship.
Since my makeup space was in his trailer, I never had my own place to hang out and he never once questioned my hanging out in there with him. He would go back to his bedroom in the back of the trailer, or else he would just hang out sitting in the kitchen at the kitchen table, and we would watch movies or listen to music...or, I'd be catching up on chopping hair or prepping stuff. Or, if we were really tired, we'd just sleep. He'd go back in his bedroom and I'd be in the makeup chair and we'd take naps. If it was a hectic day, those times when we had to work through the night....
Do you have a favorite Ron story that you carry with you?
(ponders a minute) I would have to say on a really personal note, that during the third season, I had come into the production office telling them that my dad was pretty much bedridden and would end up in the hospital soon, and that I may have to take the time because he didn't have much time left. So I prepared them that I might not be able to work. Of course, they really didn't think too much about it, but then the time came and my dad had passed away during the night. At 3 or 4 in the morning, I called Ron first, I didn't call production. I called Ron at home and told him what happened. He just said, "go be with your family. I'll make all the calls at work."
Ron has said in interviews that he would use the time in the chair to clear his mind. What did he do?
(laughs) Rarely did he just sit there! He just always listened to lots of music. I think that's probably what he was thinking about. He was so good about me doing my work and we got along so well, he could sort of zone out while I was working. He would be listening to music, catching up on whatever the day's work was, going over a script, because there'd be these times that they just threw stuff at him and he had to quickly review things or learn something to deal wtih the day's work or that script. He would sometimes take care of his own business on the phone...you know when you go home from work and you go through the mail and you're sitting there looking at a magazine and kind of relaxing? That was almost the only time he had to do that, in the chair in the morning. Sometimes if he had to make business calls, or take care of mail, he'd do that. Then, there was a lot of time when he didn't get a lot of sleep so he would, while never really fell asleep, just really relaxed.
Just kind of dozed?
Yeah, yeah. He was really good about not falling asleep in the chair.
When you first saw Vincent on the set, doing his lines in costume, did you really see the character or did you always see him with a critical eye, Ron never disappearing into the character?
Where I would just be seeing Ron?
Well, would you be saying," oh, look, that makeup is looking bad there, the lighting is wrong here" rather than just see the story take place?
I did , but there were moments, if I understand what you're saying, when I would really see Vincent, the real character.
Like the magic, where your creation would take over...
Yeah...if he had a really interesting scene, either an emotional scene or something that was even subtle, but touching, dealing with somebody, I would start to look at Vincent as a total character, a believable character and not really look at the makeup.
Do you look at the episodes that are on now, just to go back and look at it all again?
Yeah, I have. Now, I really do go, "Oh, man! His eyebrows are crooked!" (laughs). That's when he had to cry a lot and I had to run in there and wipe his nose because his nose was running through the nose of the prosthetic (laughs) Those little details no one thinks about.
You've mentioned the story about when your two year old son saw Ron's two faces. Were you ever there when his own daughter saw him as Vincent?
His daughter didn't want to see him in makeup. I think it was always like that. It was kind of a touchy thing. She really didn't like to see him like that much.
Well, it could be upsetting - she was young then.
Yeah, she was kind of sensitive. The first year my son was just like, "oh, this just is." Total acceptance. His first birthday was at Griffith Park when we were filming. My brother brought my mom and my son to the location and I had a cake bought for the whole crew. There's some pictures of Vincent holding him, getting frosting on his fingers and everything. This was kind of a special thing for me because he was a premature baby and I didn't really get to touch him until 3 days after he was born. So it was a thing for me to want to be with him on his birthday. So I had my brother bring him and Ron was just really cool about the whole thing. He played with him and everything. Then the second year, that's when he started to not want to go up to him. He was more like, "uhm, I think I'm supposed to be afraid of this." (laughs) He would be a little bit leery, and that's the story when I was taking off the makeup and he was still there watching. Ron had a short day and so my husband has video tape of my son looking at Ron as I'm taking this top skin off! And to him, it was....he looked up and said, "ow." I had to explain that there's somebody under here, it's not hurting him. (laughs) Then he was just fascinated. It was really funny seeing his reactions to the whole thing, seeing Ron's hair coming off. (laughs)
I was glad to read your comments about the poor lighting in the first season. Both you and Ron were annoyed with the lighting that season. How did you compensate for this?
It was funny because they kept thinking I was changing the makeup, that I couldn't keep it consistent! Yet everyone around, like David and Ron, we all knew it was the same! I was real consistent with everything. But it was the lighting and they kept thinking it was me at first. I didn't want to get too involved because lots of times lighting and cinematographers don't want to hear about their business from the makeup artists. So, it gets a little touchy. I would actually go through David and tell him, "how can you get this character to come through if you don't see his eyes!" There was one lighting guy that was just so, oh my gosh, he was like the last one that we didn't like before we finally got our main lighting guy that did the rest of the series. That one guy, he would call his special Vincent lighting his own name, the lighting setup was something that he designed. But I used to call it the "old Frankenstein Monster lighting."
What did Ron hate the most about being in makeup? Was it hot, did it pull, did he itch and couldn't scratch?
No, he got pretty good at that because I taught him ways to get at itches without hurting the makeup. He would borrow a little paintbrush and would take the wooden end, which was pretty rounded, so he could just press on the piece, "poke" the itches, and he wouldn't scrape anything. (laughs) I don't know, it seemed like the worst thing was when there were things he wanted to eat that he couldn't! (laughs) He taught himself how to eat upside down a little bit with a spoon because it was easier for me to touch up the makeup on his lower lip because he had no upper lip, it was all one piece. If he got stuff on there, the foam would start to get messed up.
Eric has told a funny story about the hood falling at times into Ron's face when he stopped suddenly, ruining a take. Apparently everyone laughed but Ron...
Yeah. (laughs)
Also, did you and Eric work closely together? Do costuming and makeup almost go hand in hand on the set?
Oh yeah. It did for this. Because as long as there weren't closeups, we had those gloves for his hands and Eric was always really conscious of Vincent's hair. It would be the two of us that it would come down to for the last details right before a take. If Ron had to have the hood on, that was like a real pain beause all those costumes weighed a ton and that hood was just incredibly awkward! (laughs) It weighed a lot and it was hard to keep it on his hair. I always had to take a hairpin to try to pin it so that it would really be hooked onto his wig. That was always really awkward. But Eric would let me hold the hair while he pulled the hood up, and then I would dress the hair around the hood. So that kind of little detail, we had to be near each other when we were doing things. Or when I got makeup on something it was, "ERIC! Get over here!"
Speaking of the cloak...Ok, Margaret, you HAVE to tell us.....what ARE those "sausages"? (much laughter) Eric doesn't know!
I don't think anybody knows! (laughs) It's funny.
So you don't have a sausage story, huh?
No, it was just something awkward that Ron had to deal with! (laughs)
How many actual pieces made up his look?
Hmm, let's see. Well, pieces we called the brow covers, they just covered up his eyebrows, just small little pieces. Then you had the main piece which covered his upper lip, came down the side of his mouth and into his, you know how your chin, under your lower lip, it kind of dips in? The sides of the piece came in a little bit, into those curves, and then straight up to the cheek, then around the cheek. And right around where the inside corner of your eyes are? Yeah, that was all one piece that went across the whole face. It went up the nose and made that little "T" piece that went up overlapping the eyebrow pieces. But it had to be glued on a certain way so it wouldn't be crooked. It was a little bit awkward, but it wasn't too bad.
You have said that Ron was the most professional actor you'd ever worked with, that he was always "right there" when you needed him. Can you explain a little more what you meant by that?
If I saw something that needed to be worked on....well, some actors are "well, we can do that later" or "oh, you don't notice it!" and they won't let you touch them. But Ron, he could be getting his last second directions in front of camera, ready to go, and I've still got my hand up in his face. He never, it was just like he accepted my hand going all over his face all the time, when he was getting directions from either camera or director...no matter what last minute things I had to do.
Did you work on any of the other actors, or were you strictly assigned to Ron? Did you do "mini Vinnie?"
Actually, my husband did him. It was going to be too hard for me to do both of them when they were both filming scenes at the same time. I think I may have done him some of the time, but my husband did most of that stuff. My husband also did the character in the episode that was sort of an Elephant Man guy.
Oh, yes, you mean Charles?
Yes. My husband did him. I helped him a little bit. I think it was all Rick's design, and then my husband did him.
What was a typical day for you, after that initial 4 hours in the chair? Were you at the set just monitoring your work the rest of the day, doing touchups?
Yeah. Before each take, there would be little touch-ups that needed to be done and maybe I'd have to do something with his hair because perhaps the camera angle was such that we had to cheat a little hair-wise, or maybe I'd notice that the inside of his eye needed more color because of the camera angle. Or maybe they were shooting up towards his nose (chuckles) But before each take you always had to take a look to make sure everything looked ok, and then adjust for whatever the shot was. It was a lot of work and that's why when you had that kind of character, usually makeup artists were specific to that character. There were a couple of prosthetic effects I did for the show, once for Fred Blu, the head makeup artists for B&B.
There was a scene where Paracelsus was supposed to be in this makeup as this other actor, and he rips his face off? Well, he had this appliance done for just the beginning of taking it off, where he's just actually ripping the piece away from his skin, and Fred wanted me to help him go over the blending edges and things like that with him, so I helped with that appliance. But I would also just make comments. During the first season, the head makeup artist was a great old makeup guy named Jack Wilson. He let me do, I think it was when Linda was having hallucinations? And there was some guy in the office, his face was all burned or rotting from the first season? I can't remember now. Jack let me do him.
Oh, that's from the voodoo episode, "Dark Spirit" I believe.
Yeah, that's what it was. She sees this guys' face as all messed up! We just found pieces of stuff and I just glued things together and painted them up! (laughs)
What are you most proud of with your Vincent work?
The episodes with the dark Vincent. In fact, the camera operator and his assistant at the end of those episodes, which were also the end of the season, gave me the slate, the clapboard that they clap before the take. They gave it to me and on there it still had the markings of "last scene, last take" and the name of the director. They just gave it to me as a trophy for just getting through those episodes because those were days where....well, I kept insisting that they try not to make Ron have to go from a dark Vincent to a light Vincent, not trying to change the makeup that frequently in one day, having to go back and forth. It was horrific. But I ended up having to do some quick change stuff that was...well, I really got worn out on those. We did have the stunt guy who would wear the wig. Boy, I'm trying to remember all this stuff. I think they had a vacuform of the Vincent face and I just did the makeup on this vacuform, and then they velcro-strapped it to the stunt guy's face and put the wig on top of that. So when we had the dark version that was like a real quickie. But there were times when I had to do changes on Ron and he would be like, he couldn't believe we were able to get through it. He had to, well, when they were fighting, there had to be all kinds of continuity. Oh, it was pretty hectic! That was my most challenging and probably what I was most proud of. So with the cameramen giving me that clapboard, it was like they were honoring me, giving me the trophy for the end of the year.
Do you still have it?
Oh yes. I still have it and the dates are still written on there, and the scenes and the take, last take of the day, of the season.
Did you have to watch the prothesis pretty closely for trouble when he roared, or did it allow for that kind of mouth movement?
The only time we worried was if he had to do a lot of that, and it was already past the 12 or 14 hour day. Then it would get kind of crazy and I couldn't do the touchups on the set. I tried to do touchups on the set so that it wouldn't take up so much time, but as I said before, after that long I would warn them that I was going to have to take him to the trailer where I would have to get blowdryers and try to lift the edge and reclean it and dry it out, then glue it back down and repaint it. Anything else as well, like the hair or stippling too.
Ok, you have to clear up some fan legends here...We've always heard that the makeup was thoroughly tested for "kissability!" (laughs) What can you tell us about that?
Oh yes, they could kiss (Laughs) ...They'd kiss, but sometimes, wasn't there a time, we had trouble with that...wasn't it a dream thing at the end of a season? A silhouette or something?
Yes, it was at the end of the first season. A number of endings were filmed with lots of kissing, and one ending filmed with the "soul kiss." That's the one they used on the air.
Yeah. They kept doing it over and over and over, and Fred Blu, Linda's makeup man, (laughs) was telling me he was having to brush off hairs from her face. (laughs) Hair was starting to come off and I was having to get in there and fix his hair because it was starting to get matted down. I'd just have to pick it up again! (laughs) We didn't really have too much trouble with that kind of thing. Just that one time when they kept doing it over and over.
Did you find Vincent sexy or were you so objective about him as your "job" that you couldn't see him this way?
Well, you know, it's not whether I find him sexy or not, but what happens is that I'm more comfortable with Ron in makeup than Ron without makeup. Because I'd only see "Ron" for 5 minutes in the morning and maybe 5-10 minutes at night. But for the whole day, I'd be talking to him in the makeup. It's hard to explain because no one goes through that kind of experience. I know other people on the set, when I'd mention it to Eric, they would kind of understand what I was talking about, but I guess because I had to be so close with him, when he was out of makeup, he was Ron, this actor. And for some reason, I actually felt more comfortable when he was in makeup. It wasn't like I didn't like him when he was out of makeup. Well, even he said that if we came in on maybe a later call in the day, and he wanted to go munch at the crafts service table, there'd be people who didn't know who he was!
Oh, he's told some funny stories about that.
Yeah, they didn't know what he looked like That used to crack me up, that was pretty funny. But the most familiar, the closest part of our relationship was always when he was in makeup. So Vincent was to me like a pretty real character. The makeup just fit so well on his face, that it didn't look like someone with a mask. I'm not trying to say that I did such a great job. That's why I was saying what I was about the lighting...that one guy at the end was using his "special lighting" and I finally had to let someone know what he was doing wrong. That was David, because David was always so good about letting me tell him what I thought, and he listened to everything and understood that I knew what I was talking about. He would then go over and make all these suggestions that I had told him. Especially this one time, with this one guy, because this lighting was being done from beneath Ron and that is like the old Universal horror movies, where you had the lighting come up at the monster, like holding a flashlight under your chin, and there's no eyes, everything is really sharp-featured, there's no softness and you lose the character! I kept stressing, you want this romantic gentle character, but you're lighting him like some monster! They finally, finally got it, and figured out how to get his eyes in the shot.
I'm surprised Koslow let that go on, since Vincent was his creation.
I don't think they understood! They see it as a problem, but they don't know exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. Then you have to deal with the politics. Everyone's trying and it becomes too many cooks in the kitchen so you lose focus. That's why I didn't want to add another cook, especially when they probably wouldn't have wanted to listen to me. That's why I went through David, and Ron too. I mean even Ron would make suggestions. One time I didn't say anything and he was like, "well, why didn't you say something?" because he didn't like this one shot that they did. I said, "well, I kinda thought that might happen." And he said, "You gotta speak up!" (laughs) Once we got that last lighting cinematographer, he was just really good. His stuff was beautiful - things that dealt with deep in the caves and the tunnels, with huge lakes and falls was just more fantasy and magical. Paracelsus and all that! But I tend to like science fiction and fantasy and those looks that they got with Paracelsus, or anything magical...I loved that stuff!
Did Ron ever mention what he liked best about being Vincent? Did he like the stories that took place Below, or did he like the action parts, or the Catherine/Vincent moments?
He probably did, but I don't really remember. He liked a lot of the fantasy stuff we did. It certainly made things so magical.
Well, there's certainly been nothing like it before or since it aired.
Yeah, I wish someone would come up with a great script to do a movie! I think it would be great to just focus on all of this fantasy and the underground underworld.
We all love blooper stories. Do you have any favorites?
David and Eric would probably be the best for those...The typical dialog goofs...or Vincent's nose running...(laughs) He lost a fang a couple of times where it would float around in his mouth while he was trying to finish his dialog! That's how close we were because there were times he had his hands in makeup, not the gloves, and sometimes I'd have to help him pull his fangs out of his mouth...or if he had his gloves on and we forgot his teeth, I had to stick them on there real quick and just go, "ok, open up!" (laughs) He would just sort of press them into place.
Could you actually see Ron internally transform into Vincent?
Well, both Ron and Linda weren't the kind of actors that everyone had to be on tippy-toes before a take or after a take. They weren't like method actors, where everyone's expected to hold back because they're doing their "thing" five minutes before the take and then they can't get out of it right away. Ron would just turn it off and on just like that! That made it easier too, especially when I had to work on him!
Do you have photos from your days there?
You know, I was really bad at that. I should have been more with the cameras, but I've just never been that kind of person. What I do have is a couple of pictures where Ron's not even completely done with his makeup. It's just my husband, myself, and Vincent and I really like those. They're black and white and we're in the tunnel. They just did a really nice picture of all of us with Rick. I like that. What I did do also is when it was on the last season, my husband came in and we have a video tape of putting the makeup on . I like the one of Vincent with my son and I have a couple of professional pictures of Rick with that "Charles" character. I think David came with his camera so he probably has something too. Between the two of them, we should have it..it was pretty funny that morning putting the makeup on - so we have a whole thing of the makeup going on, and then he also got video of the makeup coming off that night...with all our dialog!
What would we spend to watch that!!!!
(laughs)
Margaret, thanks so much for spending so much time with us and for allowing up the pleasure of your memories.
You're welcome. Thank you!